Meta conversations with clients

Speaker 1 00:00:03 Welcome to the web dev success podcast. I'm Emily journey. And this podcast is where I take a hard look at the challenges facing the website development industry, learn how to attract loyal customers, how to raise your prices with confidence and take steps to craft the work-life. You've always wanted listen in with me Emily journey and develop brilliantly. Speaker 1 00:00:47 Hey, web devs and creators. Welcome back. Let's talk about meta conversations with clients. So we're going to learn about why is it important to have a metaconversation when to have them, I'll share some examples of successful meta conversations and what to do with meta conversations when you're in the position of not owning your business, you're working as the employee or the consultant for a company that you don't own. First, let's start with defining it. What is a metaconversation a metaconversation is not talking about the work that you're doing with the client. So you're not talking about the project that you're working on. The timeline, the specifics of the project, a metaconversation is focused on how you're working together. So how you work and also your working relationship and how that's going. So it often involves setting boundaries and expectations. A metaconversation is not usually initiated by the client. Speaker 1 00:01:55 The client wants to talk about the project, the work, when it's going to be done, what it's going to look like. And so if you allow the client to drive your conversations, then you'll, you won't be having Mehta conversations. So it's an on your, uh, plate to initiate meta conversations. So why are they important? Uh, so amount of conversation is hard to have, so it, where it can be, especially if you don't have practice because you're frequently in a, metaconversation needing to set a boundary with the client and there can be, uh, that can be difficult because you're not really sure how your client, or even your prospect, maybe they're not even your client yet. You're not really sure how they're going to respond. And there's a little bit of fear, but that they might respond to negative. So if they're so hard to have, why do we have them? Speaker 1 00:02:47 So here's why I have metal conversations. And I encourage my employees to have, have them as well. The reward of having metal conversations makes it worth it. They are things as a result of having that, uh, conversations like here's, here's my boundaries. Here's, here's the expectations. Here's what you can expect from me. Here's the best way to work with me. Here's how, what you just said comes off. Uh, those types of conversations, hard to have. They are so rewarding and they actually make future work with that client so much easier. The other, the other thing that can happen, that's also good is a metaconversation can prevent a prospect from becoming your client. There are certain people that you don't want to be your client, and those are the ones that are demanding, uh, overly demanding, especially you don't want abusive clients. You don't want clients who don't respect your boundaries, all of these, right? Speaker 1 00:03:53 And so the sooner you can have that metaconversation with that particular prospect or client, the faster it is, they go away. They they'd want to terminate the relationship. We're okay with not having lousy clients, this video isn't for you. If you want to hang on to those clients. And if you have fear about that, that's a different video. Meta conversations can really change your relationship with a client and for the better. And so the sooner that happens the better, and sometimes you have to circle back and keep having a metaconversation, you know, if there's enough time in between, that might be okay. But if you just keep repeatedly having to bring up problems, then, then there may be a different set of decisions that you have in front of you about whether or not to terminate the relationship. But what if you're in the middle of a big project, right? Speaker 1 00:04:47 And suddenly the behavior of the client changes. And you're like more than let's say, you're, let's say you're more than halfway through. Well, the first thing I want to say is that almost never happens. So people show their themselves and their behavior patterns before a project even begins, right? So the, you can have these conversations as soon as possible. So if you wait to have a met a conversation with your client, and so like, well into a project, it's become more difficult, right? Because all along, you've been tolerating, tolerating, tolerating, and now you want to have this conversation. So it's not too late, though, right? Especially if you come to the medic conversation willing to let that client go and lose money. So I have found myself in situations where I have let things go on too long, and I have had to bring it to a Mo bring that conversation to a moment of, we don't have to continue working together. Speaker 1 00:05:56 I'm to give you all of your money back now, of course, I'm not going to deliver the assets and the deliverables, right. But I'm willing to, to let go of the relationship. And the response from the client is either going to usually either going to be, no, I know I want to keep going. I want to keep working with you and they'll agree to, and with that, they'll agree to change and respect whatever your boundary is that you're setting other, other people will actually take you up on that offer. They will say, yeah, let's not continue working together. And, and, and that actually doesn't happen very often. It happens it's but it's rare because usually the client has also invested. They've invested time. They've invested more than just money. And, and, and, and even though you can give them their money back, you can't give them their time back. Speaker 1 00:06:54 And so it's not a, it's not a great deal for, for either party you more or your client, you know, but it's the best you can come up with maybe. And so it's, it's, it's rare though, that that's where this has to go. You, you may be surprised at how, uh, often people are willing to respect your boundaries when they know what they are. That's, that's key. They have to know what your boundaries are. This often will save a project, right? So a project can, can end up being more successful and you end up being happier as well. So this is the, this is why you want to have these, uh, not a conversations, right? We, they're hard to have, but if you want to have successful projects, happier clients, and you to have a happier working life. That's why you want to have them. Speaker 1 00:07:49 You want to have these medic medic conversations. They're, they're incredibly rewarding. And it's rewarding. Even when you have to say goodbye to a client, that's actually, it's a good thing. Then you can open up your schedule for the clients who are a good match for you and who will respect your boundaries. It's hard to work with those great clients. If your time is being taken up by a different client who doesn't respect your boundaries. So when is the right time to have these meta conversations with clients? So you're, you're going to have these throughout your relationship with a client. The first medic conversation that you're going to have with a client is at onboarding. And so, or it may even be during the sales process, but it's going to be right at the beginning. And that is ideally a document. So on my team, we ha we share a document with all of our clients and it's titled how I work. Speaker 1 00:08:46 So it's, Hey, we're getting started. Here's how I work. And the message of this document is positive. And it's very much, here's how to have the best relationship and for you to get the most out of your investment in my services. So it's very client centered, right? Here's how to get the best results working with me. And that's gonna include, you know, what the client can expect from you, all the good things, right? That a client can respect from you as a, and so it's going to be good news, right? So it's not like don't do this. It's not a don't list. It's not a, don't do this to me. Don't do that. Don't do that. It's very positive. And here's, you know, all the great things that you can count on me for, and it's going to include boundaries, like, uh, you know, here's my availability, you know, here's the way to reach me in the event of an emergency, right? Speaker 1 00:09:42 If you have that type of service that you provide, like a website emergency is what I need. So if the website is crashed and down, you know, don't email me, call our office number because that's the one that's answered quickly because that's also our sales line. Right? So, so, so if your website is down, don't email me. I might not be looking at my email, call our office phone number. Right. And that's going to get the quickest response. So that, so that's an example of the type of, you know, you're providing instruction, uh, things that you may take for granted, uh, in terms of how you work, don't assume that your, your client understands how to be your client, right. So educate them on how to be your client and what to do in different situations. And so that right there is a great foundation for getting started with a client, but you can also return to it. Speaker 1 00:10:40 Right. So we don't have, like, for example, we don't, we don't have our clients sign off, right? Like, oh, I read and agree to these terms, right. That we don't really feel like that's necessary, but we do make sure that P that metaconversation is in writing, we'll confirm in a zoom or phone conversation that they received it, you know, the sooner, the better, because if a client reads anything on that document, that doesn't really sit well with them. It's not going to work. Oh, we thought you were available 24 7. We really need someone who can be on call 24 7. Well, it's good. We found out right. That we got that information right. Upfront. None of us on our, on our team are available 24 7. That's not how we work. Someone else is going to be a better fit for them. So we got that out there really, really quick. Speaker 1 00:11:32 Right? So sometimes a client will have to move on as a result of receiving that initial amount of conversation document, right. How I work. So if you don't have that, make that, so I'm going to, you know what, I'm going to make a, I'm going to provide a link to a sample, how I work document so that you can feel free to use it. So, uh, look for the link where you can download that document and edit it to, for your own use. So, so that you can, you know, so you can put this together easily. So look for that, that link, right. That how I work. Um, but then the rest of the, from there, the meta conversations come up kind of on an as needed basis. So how do you know when you need to have a meta conversation? So usually it's when you start, uh, getting that feeling of that. Speaker 1 00:12:29 You're not being respected, hopefully it's before, before that, or right at that moment. And ideally, right, the more practice you get, the quicker you'll get to these meta conversations. So practice is key. And so some examples of where you're going to want to stop pause, Hey, let's talk about our relationship. Let's schedule a meeting where we talk about how we work. You don't always have to have it instantly, but sometimes you do have to stop what's going on and have that metal conversation on the fly. Right now, it's easier to do that when you've created that, how I work document in advance so that you're not making stuff up off the F you know, oh, that's news to me, right? So you can have more confidence in talking about these when you know your boundaries. So if you don't know your boundaries, that's some homework you have to do. Speaker 1 00:13:24 You have to know what your will, how you're willing to work, how, what your limits are, how far you're willing to go. So let's, let's take some examples here. Let's say there's an email conversation and a client in their email is questioning the kind of implying that you're taking too much time to do the work and saying it in such a way that they, so they'll, you'll hear phrases like, or read phrases. Like this should only take you a few minutes, or I could do this in 10 minutes, or I could hire someone on Fiverr to get this done in 10 minutes. Right. Or, you know, you know what I'm talking about, right. Cause this is actually really common. And so let's say you get that by email. We frequently get it in a conversation as well. But let's say you get that kind of message and an email, that's your cue for a metaconversation. Speaker 1 00:14:19 Right. So, cause you're like, whoa, whoa. That's like totally disrespectful. And so how do you respond with, with that? So amount of conversation, ideally is not via email. It's really important connect on zoom. And the reason we don't have these important, difficult conversations by email is so much can get lost in translation. When we're talking about trying to communicate through email or text, you know what I'm talking about, we need to see each other's faces over zoom or hear our tone of voice. Oh. You know, over the phone so that, you know, really supports the conversation. So don't try to have meta conversations over email or text. So that's your cue to say, I want to respond to your concern, get that out of the way I want to respond to your concern. Let's have this conversation over the phone. It's real. It's really important to have this conversation over the phone. Speaker 1 00:15:10 Does this day in time work for you or do these days or any of these days or times work for you and wait for them to schedule that time with you? What if they keep trying to have the conversation by email? Right? Cause that happens. Sometimes people just ignore, right? So you keep resp broken record treatment. You keep responding. I want to respond to you. Let's get on the phone or let's get on zoom. Do any of these days or times work for you, this other one now doesn't work or something like that. Right. And then that conversation, Hey, thanks for making this time for me again, repeating, right? I want to respond to your concern and specifically your concern about the amount of time it takes me to do my work, I think know. Right? So we're just getting right to it, right? It's we're not talking about the project at all. Speaker 1 00:16:01 And the client may kind of go into the project cause that's comfortable. That's where they want to talk. That's what they want to talk about is the project. So you're verbalizing, which they may not have the courage to do, you know, or maybe they do, right. They're just kind of blatantly suggesting that you're too slow or, or that you're not respecting their time or their budget. So that's what you want to start with is the, the things that you said about time and, and that maybe other people can do this work faster. Right. You just want to repeat it back what they've said to you because you know, cause sometimes they, people don't hear what, the words that they're, they're saying, or if they wrote them in an email, when they hear it repeated back to them, they can hear how insulting it is. Right. Speaker 1 00:16:50 So, so you have to repeat it back to, I just want to respond to, to that piece first, before we, before we continue, this is really important. When you make statements like that, about how long it takes for me to do my work, that I'm not doing it quickly enough. Um, it doesn't sit well with me. And so let's talk about that. So you can count on me to be honest with you, about how much time it takes for me to do, to do work. Can we move forward? And can you trust me that when I tell you how much time it takes me to do a project that I'm being honest and so boom, we're getting right, right into it. So, and then the, and then the client is either going to apologize, correct. Or they may even deny, right? Like, oh, that's not what I meant. Speaker 1 00:17:46 Oh, I'm, you know? And so then the, the response from you may be positive. Like I'm so glad to hear. That's not what you meant. I want you to know that's how it came across. So, so even if that's not what they meant, that's how it came across. And so sometimes people just need that education from you and we're not being defensive at all. Right. We're not raising our voice, we're being direct. And that's key saying what it is, how it came across, how, and to, and that's taking responsibility for your feelings about what happened. So those are, those are yours. And so not only are you doing that, you're not just letting that kind of rotten eggs sit there, you're providing a solution. Right? So the solution is start trusting me. You know, when I say that this is how much time it takes, trust me, that's the solution. Speaker 1 00:18:38 And so, and so if they can't go there, if they can't embrace that solution and you know, if they can't agree, agree to that solution that you provide, then should they be working with you? Right. So, so it's going to go in one, uh, one direction or another, they can, they can be willing to change. Right. And agree to the solution. And even when they did not die, you can still present the same solution. Right. Because you know, this is really, they can even be in denial and you can still say, can we agree that you're going to trust me that I'm telling the truth? So the answer is really yes or no. No I can't. Right. Sometimes the client will say that, but rarely will usually when a client is talking, they may not trust you. Or they may just have a lot of fear. Speaker 1 00:19:25 Right. And so what's more trustworthy than to have honest, hard conversations. That's so like, it makes you a more trustworthy person. Right. And so, and sometimes a client will even apologize. Right. So they, don't probably not the first time that they've, um, had this kind of dynamic. You're not the only one that they treat this way. They treat all professionals this way. Maybe you're the only professional who's been willing to bring it up directly. That makes you if they continue in the relationship with you, that makes you the one that they trust. Right. Because you're being real and so frequently. So that's where the reward comes in because the relationship changes for the better, as a result of these medic conversations. And so they can be very reinforcing to, to have, um, even when a client exits, right. It may feel like they exited quickly and without good reason. Speaker 1 00:20:23 And we hate to see clients make decisions that are not in their best interest when it comes to their business, but sometimes they do and it can be, you know, kind of sad, right. Cause, cause we get invested in our clients. We want them to be successful, but we also need to protect ourselves. Okay. So another, so that's the example of the client who questions your price and your time. Right. And if you can kind of get that to show up in the sales process, like before they even become your client and have that conversation, even at that point, that's great. So, uh, cause then they may or may not even get in the door. Right. We want to stop those people from getting in the door. Sometimes people sneak in though. So have that conversation as soon as possible. Another example that frequently calls for a metaconversation is the client who is either demanding or very needy of your time. Speaker 1 00:21:18 So they're, they're wanting to have meetings all of the time and you know, maybe they're a big idea person, right. And they've got a new idea, a new idea and a new idea, um, right. That's great. And they're excited about it and they want to share it with you and see what you have and, and they want your consultation, your expertise. And what's really important here is that, you know, what time you have available. Right. And so, and to communicate that clearly and to make it clear right up front, you know, as soon as possible when it, so let's say you have a limited amount of time that you have available to a client before you start charging additional. And so then you have this client that's asking for a lot of time and it can be a difficult conversation to pause and say, Hey, I want you to know we have a specific schedule for how we communicate and I enjoy hearing from you, right? Speaker 1 00:22:15 I like these conversations, but I also want you to be aware that some of these conversations that we have I'm invoicing you for. So before I do that, I just, I don't want that to come out of the blue. Right. I'm respecting your time and your budget. And uh, so I, I just want you to be aware that, that this consultation time that we have is, is billable on my, on my end that you'll you'll receive overage or whatever. And this is one where someone can get really pissed off and accuse you of nickeling and diming. Right? So that's the, that's what you might hear is like, why are you nickeling and diming me for, for questions or conversations. Right. And so that can hurt my feelings when I hear that, that kind of thing. So well, so what's tempting is to allow that to continue right. Speaker 1 00:23:05 To let it slide. So then the client gets used to it. Like they get, they become accustomed to how quickly you respond, how many meetings they can have with the, I mean, and then it kind of feels like the rug gets pulled out from under them. When all of a sudden they hear that you're going to charge them. So, so this conversation about your availability and your time, I mean, this can really be covered in not how I work document, but let's say they ignored it as soon as possible. You want to remind them of how you, how accessible you are and you on your side, it's really important to not instantly respond to everything, right? You remember, you're teaching your client how to work with you and how available you are and your fear might be well, what if they are upset with me for not responding instantly or what if they don't want to be my clients anymore? Speaker 1 00:24:02 Because I take 24 hours to respond. When they've asked me a question by email, or let's say, you've said, thanks for sending this to me. I will be working on this on, you know, I'll have this done by Monday, next week, right. Or something instead of like today. Right? So that can be your fear, right? Are as the service provider, this fear that they don't, that they get upset with us. Well, how realistic is that for, if you have a full client load for you to be so available, right. Without pay, without getting paid for this additional time. So that's the key because maybe you can be more available to this client. Maybe this client wants to pay you for all this extra time. That would then actually make it worth it. There's a premium price for that level of access to you. Um, you don't want to be giving that away for free. Speaker 1 00:24:59 And so, but remember you're training your client, you know, and you don't want to train them that you are just available all the time. And that you're, and the amount of time that you're available is, you know, whatever, um, you're, you're helping them right from the get go, because you don't want a client to feel like, oh, I didn't realize you were doing me a favor all this time. So here's what you do. Anytime that right off the get go that you feel that is, oh, you know, above and beyond going over document that on their invoice and the first week, or, you know, if you don't have that conversation immediately and you just, maybe it just happens and one time or a couple of times, and you're not quite sure yet if this is like boundary busting, right. Maybe you're not sure yet, but, and so what you do is any additional time that's above and beyond what you would normally offer. Speaker 1 00:25:53 And let's say, you're not a meet. You, haven't had this conversation of I'm going to charge you for this. Right. You want to at least put it on, note it on the invoice and the amount of time and note the price of that. You may choose to waive the price of that, like the first time. Right. So you're not, you know, and so that'll be like, oh, that, that thing that took time, and I'm not paying for it this time. So that when you do have to charge the client for your additional time and you you've had this conversation, um, and they're like, you know, well, what's, what's this extra time for, right. Or why are you charging me for that? Well, then you can kind of refer back to, well, in the past, I have waived that, right. This, but this, this is time that, that, you know, that I have, that I, that I charge for, this is my expertise. Speaker 1 00:26:46 This is my consultation. And so we really want to go right into those situations where the client will, um, either start respecting right, and respecting your, your limits or they'll exit. Right? So again, don't want to hang on to those clients who don't respect us. Right. And we also have to take our part, our responsibility and recognize how we contribute to, um, some problematic relationships with our clients because we're giving them stuff for free our time for free, and we're not noting it and they're oblivious to it. Right. And that's our fault. So a final example that I want to provide today is the client that becomes abusive. So that is, and we've had that. Um, sometimes we, you know, and sometimes an abusive client will show up after they've come on board. Right? They like, it would be nice if they would show themselves for who they are before they become our clients. Speaker 1 00:27:51 But sometimes that abusive client shows up after they've come on board. And, um, here's, uh, a situation that we've run into a few times. It's where your point of contact is not the final decision-maker, but your usual person that you work with understands how to work with you. They respect your boundaries, but you have a CEO that steps in come shows up on some of the calls or meetings, and the CEO is abusive and, um, and demanding and wants to treat you like they're your employee. And so that is, you know, the source of that is frequently. That's how that's a CEO style. That's how they operate. They're a bully that, you know, this, they're just treating you the way they treat everyone. Right. And so, as a result, the type of people that they surround themselves with, don't confront them, don't push back. They, they kowtow to the bully and that's who they're surrounded by. Speaker 1 00:28:55 And this is I'm generalizing. Right. But, um, and so they're not used to getting feedback on their behavior. And so you're going to be different when you're bullied. It's like, it's kind of scary and it can be hard to respond. It is hard, hard to respond. And sometimes you don't think about or recognize that you were bullied until after the meeting, right. Maybe you had the meeting and then you reflect on that. Maybe you talk to your boss or, or a colleague. And, and you're like, whoa, I think that, that was, I was just being bullied there. Or maybe your boss says, Hey, you are being bullied. Right. And you don't have to put up with that. If you find yourself just feeling terrible or really emotional after a call, that's a sign that they're yeah. A conversation here. And before you can do anything else, you know, have this conversation label it. Speaker 1 00:29:50 I felt bullied. Right. I felt bullied in this situation. I don't, I can't have that happen again, but you have to be real specific about what was said or done. And this can't happen by email. So it needs to happen in a conversation. And if you need to bring someone else onto the call with you, for reality check or whatever, to validate, to confirm, do that. If you need to record the conversation, do that via zoom. Right. And so you might wonder if, oh, well that person, the bully, as soon as you confront them, they're going to like terminate the relationship immediately and what we've, what we, and that would actually be nice. What we found though, is what happens instead is, is frequently the, the bullying CEO will actually step back. They'll apologize. They'll, they'll promise not to do it again. And then sometimes not always, but sometimes it happens again and it keeps happening. Speaker 1 00:30:55 Right? So at any point, when you're dealing with a bully and you've got, and you've done your part, brought it up, that's key. You have to, it's really important for you to do your part, brought it up as an issue. And that's something that, you know, Hey, going forward, I don't tolerate, you know, the, well, you have to say specifically what it was. I don't, I don't tolerate being yelled at being called names. It's abusive. And I also dictate when, when I have meetings, I'm not, I'm a consultants and an expert. I'm, I'm not an employee. So, so I don't operate as your employee. I determine my schedule. And you know, if you have like, sometimes the CEO will say, well, we're going to meet on these days and we're going to meet this often. And that's also a form of bullying, right? So, so you want, you want to speak specifically about what doesn't work for you, right? Speaker 1 00:31:47 So like I was saying, sometimes the behavior stops and the pattern gets better, or maybe they drop out completely and allow you to continue working just one-on-one with their employee who, uh, is more respectful of you. But at any time the, you, you don't have to wait for the client to be on board and agree with tenor, terminating the relationship. At any time, you can make that decision yourself to, to terminate the relationship. And, and that can, can be hard. You also have to be prepared though, with that termination, the relationship is to lose some money because frequently a client will want their money back because you're not giving them, you're not completing the project. And I have found that that's rare that that has to happen. But when it does, it's such a relief. The money comes back in terms of new clients, because you're not as stressed out, you have time for new clients. Speaker 1 00:32:49 And so that's been my experience. It's been very rewarding to let go of some clients, to terminate the relationship and, and just to be very direct about it. It's not working out. You know, this is, this is not working out. Our working relationship is, is not a positive one. Um, we've talked about it and, and I'm not seeing the change that I need to see happen. So, um, I'm terminating the relationship. You don't even really have to go into all the reasons it's not really necessary. You're going to want to talk about how to terminate, right? You're going to want to, you know, maybe you will be providing some of the assets that you've created and you'll be holding and that'll be an exchange for not refunding them all their money. Right. Maybe it's just a partial refund of their money. So that'll, that might be like a conversation or they might be like, goodbye. Speaker 1 00:33:39 And you might say, well, no, we have a contract. We have an agreement. I'm not giving them their money back. Or I'm only giving them part of their money back. You know, they're just going to have to live with it. But what I think you should know, if you don't know this already is that the customer has the upper hand when it comes to being able to get their money back. So if you have any experience with charge backs, you know, the customer always wins even with a contract and very few projects, are you really going to be willing to hire a lawyer for an order to battle over a contract? So, so also bring realistic realism to your actions, right? So it's frequently going to be easier to, to let go and to, and to take that loss of money. Other situations not you're going to battle it. Speaker 1 00:34:29 And you're going to bring an attorney in and you're going to make sure you have that contract in force. And that'll just be a case by case situation, but no with yourself, what, what, what option is going to be worth it to you? Uh, we found on our end is we're, we're relieved to not have a relationship with a client who's abusive or won't respond to our boundary setting, which is abusive so that, so we just don't want abusive clients. Okay. Finally, we're going to talk about what if, uh, what if you're an employee and you have, you, you are providing services for an employer and you have a slate of clients that you're serving, but you're not the business owner or you're a consultant, or, um, so at my company, my team members have within their power to terminate a relationship and it will be out a lot and they are protected at my company. Speaker 1 00:35:25 They will still get paid for the time that they worked on the projects. And so that that's a protection that I offer to my team. No, why would I do that? So instead saying, Hey, it's, you know, figure it out, work it out. That's like what a lot of businesses do to work it out, right? You have an obligation to get the job done. And especially since I'm paying you that kind of thing. Right. But we don't have that attitude at my company. It's really a good thing because I want my employees to be happy. I want my employees to be committed to my, to working at my company and not be looking to go working someplace else where they're treated better and I want to have a good relationship. So I want with my employees, so I have their backs, so they don't have to talk, tolerate abusive clients. Speaker 1 00:36:15 And what I ask in return from my team is that they be willing to, to have these metal conversations right from the get-go. So that's, uh, that's something that I trust them to do first. Right. Or if they haven't done that, I will send them to do that. Right. So have that, have these medic conversations. It's not first step cut the relationship off. Right. That's not the first. And so I trust my team, have these conversations all along the way too. And when they do that, if they have done all of the right things, that it makes it a lot easier for me to, to have their back because frequently those metal conversations can solve the problem. Right. Right. From the get-go. But if there's been no conversations like this going then all of a sudden, oh, I don't like this project. I want to quit on the project. Speaker 1 00:37:09 I want to walk away from it. You know, that doesn't sit well with, with me because I'm still paying my employee. Right. So I have this. So I have this trust with, with my employees that they'll have those conversations and they do. So it works out really well. There are still situations where we need to exit a client and that happens totally worth it. No regrets, because we, we, as a result, have a great team, great clients at our company. If you're an employee, what do you do? My recommendation is that you have this conversation with your, the business owner or the supervisor that you work, the person that pays your check. Um, and this may not be possible if you live, if you work in big corporate America, right. But if you work for an agency or you're the consultant for an agency, make this a conversation to have, Hey, what, what's the policy with abusive clients? Speaker 1 00:38:06 What's the policy to handle abusive. Clients are abusive. Clients tolerated ask that question. It's, it's totally legit. And I'd be, I'd be surprised if the answer were, yes, we tolerate abusive clients. What's more likely is. They've never thought of that. They've never had had anyone ask them that question. And ideally, you're going to have that conversation at early, before you have an abusive client, right? So that you already know what the process is. You know, how do what's this? What do we do when there's an abusive client? What's the policy is there and what happens when they don't correct their behavior. What's maybe there's no policy in place. And so simply by asking this question, it can prompt or, or spur a, the creation of a policy. And by taking the lead on bringing, bringing up, maybe you can help with the crafting of that policy or influence it, or make suggestions about the policy. Speaker 1 00:39:10 So have that conversation and find out what are the boundaries. And then you can decide, you know, hopefully you can decide whether or not that is a healthy work environment for you. My hope is, is that it is. I also hope that this conversation that we've had today about, about meta conversations with clients can expand into the rest of your life. You know, these medic conversations are valuable, not just with clients, but also with employers, with colleagues, coworkers, with family and friends. So Def so again, look for the link for our onboarding document called how I work to download your free copy, leave a comment and or any questions or any situations that I actually haven't considered yet. Maybe, you know, I'm not perfect. So if there are situations that I'm not taking into account, I'd love to hear what they are. Let's let's brainstorm. Let's talk, uh, talk about the situations where Mehta conversations come up. If you have your own experience with a metaconversation, I would love to hear about it. Tell, tell us what happened, how it went. That would be awesome. I'd love to see. Did it go south? Did it do well? Did good things happen? So, all right, I'll see you next time. Speaker 1 00:40:35 Thank you for listening to the web dev success podcast. I'm Emily journey. And if you enjoyed today's episode, take a minute to leave a review on iTunes until then develop brilliantly.